Engine Vibration on 440 and missing cam esentric for fuel pump

[Frank VP Challenger]

I recently completed restoration of a 1972 Challenger that someone had installed a 440 ci. 4 barrel with 727 transmission. The vehicle was straight, rust free and was a good candidate for a Vanishing Point (Kowalski) clone/replica. The alpine white paint came out great and I refreshed the black interior (headliner, carpet, door panels, etc).

The car had a noisey electric fuel pump on it. After ordering a new mechanical pump and starting the installation, I found out that the fuel pump push rod was missing. In addition, there was nothing to activate the fuel pump arm. It appears that the esentric lobe on the cam is not there. So, I'm assuming a newer later model cam without an esentric was installed - ? Anyway, I plan on ordering a new cam (with an essentric lobe) to resolve this problem.

Another issue that I haven't been able to pin point is a very noisey vibration while driving at any speed. I've had the drive shaft checked and balanced, the rear pinion reset, checked transmission and motor mounts - but the vibration remains -? The 440 engine is identified as a high performance 440 steel crank from 1969, and is balanced internally. So, I'm assuming the high stall torque converter is a neutral balance - no weights.

I would appreciate any suggestions on correcting this "out of balance" problem, or; any additional checks I can perform to pin point the problem. Thanks. Frank VP Challenger.

 

[TC_Cuda]

First welcome to the site.
I have never seen or heard of a 440 cam without a concentric to activate the fuel pump. How did you determine it's not there? Have you removed the cam? I am real curious about this. A person could not install the concentric if it were a small block, because it is bolted in, but it's part of the cam in a 440.

As far as a vibration, as you know there are a few thing's. First does the vibration change with the speed of the car or with engine RPM.. and when you say "noisy vibration" I worry about that... can you give a little more info.. Does it ever settle out at any point? Where is it the worst? Any info helps because, it is very hard to troubleshoot without being there Also, just how "bad" is the vibration?
Sorry I'm not much help, but other's will chime in with more... Post some pictures...

 

[DetMatt1]

Welcome to the site from the Motor City!
My guess is the electric pump was added when the mechanical quit working. I had some fuel delivery issues on one of my 440s and it took a while to track it down. It ended up being a worn fuel pump pushrod that was over 1/4" shorter then it should have been. Luckily the cam lobe was fine and a new rod and the right engine oil from that point on solved the problem. I believe modern engine oils don't protect our vintage iron from wear because of there lack of zinc. I use Brad Penn oils in my classics.
Do you know if your engine has ever been rebuilt?

 

[Frank VP Challenger]

First welcome to the site.
I have never seen or heard of a 440 cam without a concentric to activate the fuel pump. How did you determine it's not there? Have you removed the cam? I am real curious about this. A person could not install the concentric if it were a small block, because it is bolted in, but it's part of the cam in a 440.

As far as a vibration, as you know there are a few thing's. First does the vibration change with the speed of the car or with engine RPM.. and when you say "noisy vibration" I worry about that... can you give a little more info.. Does it ever settle out at any point? Where is it the worst? Any info helps because, it is very hard to troubleshoot without being there Also, just how "bad" is the vibration?
Sorry I'm not much help, but other's will chime in with more... Post some pictures...

 

[Frank VP Challenger]

Thanks for the quick response. I haven't changed out the cam yet - For now, I just put a less noisy electric pump on and isolated it with rubber bushings. I discovered (to my surprise) the push rod missing when I pulled the pump late cover off and the pipe plug accces bolts. I ordered a new push rod and installed it - the new rod would not even move when the engine was cranked. I then tested it with a longer dowel - still no movement. So I assumed there was no esentric lobe to activate the fuel pump arm - I've never heard of this before as well. I don't know why someone would grind it off or; install a cam that didn't have the esentric. Did the later (newer) RB engines come without the esentric ?

As for the vibration, It's not a shimmy or shaking motion, but just a loud noise coming from areas of the car like the door panels and under dash/steering column area - again, best described as a continuous steady rattle that does not smooth out when coasting or; when increasing speed. I thought I might pull the transmission to check the torque converter to see if it has weights - ? Everything looks good on the underside of the car. Wheels/tires are new and balanced, U-joints OK - so another mystery. I'm sure the engine was rebuilt at least one time and other Thant fuel pump issue and annoying vibration, car is great. Thanks for your interest.

Frank VP Challenger

 

[moparlee]

Check the transmission dust shield. I had a loud noise on one of my cars coming from underneath and it turned out to be the torque converter bolts hitting against that dust shield. Re-adjusted and tightened, noise gone. Good luck in your search.

 

[RzeroB]

Thanks for the quick response. I haven't changed out the cam yet - For now, I just put a less noisy electric pump on and isolated it with rubber bushings. I discovered (to my surprise) the push rod missing when I pulled the pump late cover off and the pipe plug accces bolts. I ordered a new push rod and installed it - the new rod would not even move when the engine was cranked. I then tested it with a longer dowel - still no movement. So I assumed there was no esentric lobe to activate the fuel pump arm - I've never heard of this before as well. I don't know why someone would grind it off or; install a cam that didn't have the esentric. Did the later (newer) RB engines come without the esentric ?
Frank VP Challenger

That's just weird. The "eccentric" is just another built-in lobe on the camshaft - but it's between the distributor drive gear and the #1 cam bearing. All the factory big-blocks had them until they stopped production. Can't imagine anyone purposely "grinding" it off - what would be the advantage in doing that? I don't know of any aftermarket cams that don't include the pump lobe on them. Most likely it somehow lost it's surface hardness and the pump lobe wore down. Usually it is the pump pushrod that wears down - but who knows with this one. Like I said - weird.

As for the vibration, It's not a shimmy or shaking motion, but just a loud noise coming from areas of the car like the door panels and under dash/steering column area - again, best described as a continuous steady rattle that does not smooth out when coasting or; when increasing speed. I thought I might pull the transmission to check the torque converter to see if it has weights - ? Everything looks good on the underside of the car. Wheels/tires are new and balanced, U-joints OK - so another mystery. I'm sure the engine was rebuilt at least one time and other Thant fuel pump issue and annoying vibration, car is great. Thanks for your interest.
Frank VP Challenger

As one of the previous posters alluded to, in analyzing the vibration problem and trying to isolate, you need to determine if it is related to engine speed OR vehicle speed. From reading your posts about it, it is hard to tell which one it is related to. You really need to determine which one it related to and then narrow it down from there. Good luck and lets us know how you make out with it.

 

[Frank VP Challenger]

Thanks for all your interest. I'll start working to figure out these 2 issues when the weather warms up a little more. In the interim, I will try to make contact with the previous owner and ask him to see if would know anything regarding the "missing cam lobe concentric and vibration problem. Thanks again. Frank VP Challenger.

 

[moparleo]

Welcome aboard. If the vibration is in the dash /door panel areas it is not drivetrain related. Anything in the drive train would naturally follow the driveline eg.. engine imbalance,/flexplate loose/broken/torque convertor,/ broken-loose mounts/ trans. tail shaft bushing,/ input yoke,u-joint/drive-shaft,/rear joint,/pinion yoke/bearing,/bent axle,/extreme brake drum imbalance,/wheel/tire out of round/bent/imbalance etc... All of these items would cause a vibration through the seat/floor/areas. a quick check would be to raise vehicle and place jack stands under the rear axle housing. Start and check vibration at idle. Then put in drive and slowly increase speed. This will help to isolate the vibration if it is in the drivetrain. Diagnosis procedures are all ways the same. Recheck everything again. don';t assume that anything is ok with out checking it. Check simple,obvious things first and don't skip anything. Have at least another set of eyes and ears also checking with you. ( You shouldn't run the car in gear without somebody else there anyway for safety) Another question. Was the car running and driving when you purchased it ? Or did you just complete the installation of the parts and then drive it ?

 

[Frank VP Challenger]

Thanks for the scientific approach to diagnosing this problem - I'll certainly try to pin point the vibration using your suggestions. To answer your question, I bought the car with the big block and 727 already installed - just had to refresh the interior, change out the big wheels, engine tune/cleanup, minor gasket changes, radiator flush/ repair, some wiring cleanup and paint job. Thanks for your help.
Frank VP Challenger.

 

[moparleo]

Just wondered if it was driven before any mods were done when you first got it. Or if you made changes before you actually drove it. Trying to narrow down variables.

 

[Frank VP Challenger]

The car was with the vibration and the electric fuel pump when I purchased it last year. So, to answer your question, it's been this way for sometime. Again, I will attempt to contact the previous owner (who owned the car for the last 25 years) and who did or had someone do the mods relating to the engine and trans. The VIN identifies the car as initially being a 318 V8.
Thanks, FrankVP Challenger.

 

[AUSTA]

Could the vibration & the pump issue be related such as badly worn front cam bearing

 

[moper]

The pump pushrod may be binding in the hole if the earlier one did indeed get worn off. All cams will have the eccentric, so it's either worn away, or something preventing the rod from reaching it. You can visually inspect the eccentric by removing the distributor and looking down in front of the oil pump drive gear while turning the engine over.
On the viration. Does it do it when the car is sitting still and the transmission is in nuetral or park? If it does - it's the engine or convertor/flywheel. If not - it is elsewhere. Do you feel it more in the steering wheel or you butt? Steering wheel - it's in the front end. Butt it's in the driveline. Does it change with speed, or transmission gear? In drive does it get steadilly worse or get better, then get worse as you get faster? What did you mean by you had the pinion checked?

 

[IQ52]

Sometimes the cam cores come from the core producer without the fuel pump eccentric having been ground. The cam companies grind the lifter lobes, not the fuel pump eccentric. A couple of years ago I received a custom ground cam with the eccentric not ground. I called the cam company and had them check their stock of cam cores. They found a bunch of cores without the eccentrics ground. I had planned to use an electric fuel pump on the build, so, in my case, the lack of the eccentric was no problem.

 

[Frank VP Challenger]

I will remove the distributor and visually look down in front of the oil pump drive gear to check the cam concentric - although, earlier, when working under the car, I held a wooden dowel that I inserted into the fuel pump push rod hole and had someone turn the engine over - no movement in or out was observed. In comparing the old (original) push rod to the new one, there was no measurable difference. So, Maybe it's possible the cam was produced without a concentric grind ? I wonder if the popular cam companies (Comp Cams, Lunati, ect.) have ever encountered this ?

 

[moparleo]

It would not be unusual for a late LA engine with FI. but an RB or B-block would be very unusual as there weren't any factory FI set-ups for the big blocks. Discontinued in the late 70's and the LA engine was in production until the GEN III Hemi replaced it.

 

[moper]

I haven't ever seen one missing entirely or not finished properly but it's possible. Might be why it got that electric pump...

 

[Frank VP Challenger]

Update: Regarding the cam concentric not operating the fuel pump arm/lever. I finally got back to working on resolving a couple of issues with car. I removed the distributor and looked in the hole at the area between the distributor gear and the front camshaft journal. There appears to be a concentric on the cam. In addition, I was able to contact the previous owner and get the cam specs (Mopar purple camshaft , 292 duration and 509 lift). I forgot to ask him how long ago it was installed. He did tell me that he didn't bother to check the concentric - as he had always ran an electric fuel pump.

I sent an email into the Mopar Connection tech line and asked about the cam concentric and explained that I could not get the concentric to activate the pump arm/lever. Nor could I see any movement of the f-pump push rod when bumping the engine over.
I got a response a day later and was told that if I could not get any movement, that the concentric was most likely wiped off - due to the absence of zinc in the engine oil. This is most likely the reason I'm having this problem. So, I guess I'll plan on running it for awhile with the electric pump and plan on a cam and lifter change later down the road - and I'll definitely add a zinc additive to my oil in all my older cars.