this has been bothering me...

[ramenth]

Recently there was a thread started on one of our sister sites comparing the viewership there as to the viewership here. The comment was made about how many members and guest were online at the same time as here.

The thread immediately devolved into an E-body and E-body owners bash thread.

I'm sorry, I have issues with threads like this and folks who join in on it.

The typical response is about how one Mopar is superior to another. Theirs', of course, being the "superior" model. And I don't make that comment as a slam to the cars they drive, but rather to highlight how the respondents placed that label.

The stereotypical E-body owner, to them, is an arrogant rich guy, polishing a '71 Hemicuda convertible with a diaper, behind ropes so that the unwashed masses can't get within ten feet of the car. In truth I've met one - one - such owner at Carlisle back in '96. And his wasn't a Hemi car, yet was a multiple magazine featured, one-of-one '70 Challenger R/T convertible.

On our sister site I've seen folks build projects on a budget, just as here. I've seen folks build a lifelong dream, just as here. I'm seen folks work toward bringing back to life cars which have been with them for years, just as here. So how does this substantiate to make us "outsiders" looking in on a hobby of which we've been accused of ruining?

Yet, for all our supposed arrogance as E-body owners - all of our snobbishness, supposedly all of our superiority to other Mopar owners - I don't see anyone on this site chiming in to bash the other models. (And we won't as long as I'm a mod here.) Yet for the way we're portrayed they're acting in the manner of which they accuse us.

I don't understand this. I don't see Camaro owners bashing on Chevelle owners. I don't see Mustang owners bashing on Torino owners.

As a matter of fact, when a subforum dedicated to another body style was offered up on our sister site these same folks crawled out of the woodwork to dismiss as inferior the other body style and it's derivatives. Yet we're the ones being accused as being arrogant and having a "superior" attitude.

As an M-body owner I've been told that the E-body guys will ignore me and the B-body guys won't talk to me, by someone who's never had any interaction of this site, or I highly consider, never actually had any interaction with E and B-body guys to begin with. The joke was on him, of course, as it's well known that as an M-body guy I'm also an E- and a B-body guy. Hell, I guess I'm just a Mopar guy. If you look at my sig you'll see I currently have damned near the alphabet going as far as projects. Those I don't have now I've owned in the past: C's, F's, D's, even a K mixed in. I like Mopars. Each has strength and weaknesses, which can be exploited and overcome.

I'm sorry, I'm not rich. I own my own business in which there are historic dry spells that I have to use my profits during the year to offset. Sometimes that means no money for the projects. I have to save for every part I can find and plan for the budget on the build to be able to get the parts I need. Trust me, folks, if I was rich the E-body would be stalking Ferrari's now, not sometime in the future.

We've been accused of "ruining the hobby" with our "money," but I see the popularity of the E-body as having bolstered the Mopar hobby. For those of you who have tried to restore or build an A-body back in the days before the musclecar boom of the '80's you'll know what I mean. Back in the late '80's, early '90's you'll remember the only piece of sheetmetal that was available was the spare tire well. The odd vendor might have slip-on rocker panel skins, but that was it. The popularity of the E-body has given rise to vendors like AMD and Goodmark who are making more sheetmetal available, for just about every musclecar era Mopar than there ever has been. I'm not saying this to justify the attitude of "I have an E-body and you don't so there" of which we've been accused, but to point out the economics of the hobby. Hell, there's a lot more sheetmetal available now for A's and B's than there was for the E-bodies back when my dad bought the '74 in the early '90's. How is that "ruining the hobby?"

Most of the E-body guys I've met and had direct transactions with are humble, willing to help, full of love for the hobby, and love for his car. Sound familiar?

Sorry for the rant, folks, but things like this get to me. I'm never a fan of someone accusing me of being something I'm not, while in the process the accuser is displaying tendencies of being what he's accusing me of being.

 

[toolmanmike]

I started that thread on FABO as just a casual observance. I have been a member here for a while but don't spend much time here because I own a 66 Dart. Now that I found my old Challenger, I have been stopping by here to check things out. When you pop back and forth between sites there was no new posts here. I looked at the online user box on the home page and could see why. Most of the comments on the FABO post were meant in jest but the thread started to turn the wrong direction. I was glad it died! We are all in this hobby together and there shouldn't be any bashing of the other guys. I personally know and respect quite a few E and B Body guys and I hope they respect me and my A body. tmm

 

[ramenth]

I started that thread on FABO as just a casual observance. I have been a member here for a while but don't spend much time here because I own a 66 Dart. Now that I found my old Challenger, I have been stopping by here to check things out. When you pop back and forth between sites there was no new posts here. I looked at the online user box on the home page and could see why. Most of the comments on the FABO post were meant in jest but the thread started to turn the wrong direction. I was glad it died! We are all in this hobby together and there shouldn't be any bashing of the other guys. I personally know and respect quite a few E and B Body guys and I hope they respect me and my A body. tmm

Mike, I didn't name names, or even give a link to the thread. I kind sensed what you're intentions were with the thread. But FABO is how old, with how many members? Last I looked it was ten times as big and with a membership like that it's gonna have more online users as any given moment. With a cross section that large it's also gonna have more thread topics and other interests in general.

But, back to your intentions. I know they were good. You were making a general observation. Hence the reason I decided not to name names or even post a link as to where such observations can be found.

This is just the latest round of what I've seen. I've responded to numerous threads, not just on FABO, but a few other forums which the topic has come up. Hell, where I've been bad-mouthed as an M-body owner was on FABO!
I've actually been given the proverbial pat on the back for the job that I'm doing on my Diplomat by guys here. I've gotten that on FABO, too, don't misunderstand me, and my build thread there has gotten quite the response, but not once, ever, have I had someone here bad mouth me for owning and building an M-body.

And that's what bothers me. When I first joined here the site was small enough, and I had enough time from being unemployed at the time, that I was able to read through just about every thread here. Never once did I see any E-body owner taking the time to bash A-body owners, M-body owners, what have you. Yet we're portrayed as the arrogant and selfish snobs who laugh at other Mopar owners because we have this supposedly "superior" attitude. Yet, as can be witnessed here, and many a car show I've attended, that just isn't the case.

I've talked to E-body owners at other shows, without ever letting on that I own one. All were welcoming and friendly full of pride in their cars, full of pride of being part of the community and the hobby. Yet we're portrayed as just the opposite from guys who go out of their way to bash us and display that very same kind of attitude of which they accuse us.

And that bothers me.

Mike, we're good. Some of the folks there may have said what they said tongue and cheek, but as it ultimately does, it devolved into the latest round of "let's-bash-the-E-body-guys." And I find that to be the most unfortunate part about it.

 

[Ray]

Not surprised by that. I used to frequent a popular Pontiac site, and the venom between the racers and restorers was insane. Talk about a divided community. Just relax enjoy those you make friends with and enjoy your cars.

 

[toolmanmike]

I'm with ya Robert!

 

[pagilman]

I think most of the hits on that thread were young kids.......

 

[Brads70]

That's just dumb? I'd love to own a 70 Road Runner, GTX, 68-69 Charger, so many great cars....but so little money!

Might get banned from here but..... I also would love a 70-71 Torino Cobra GT!
I love all cars and apreciate all the hard work, blood sweat, and tears that we all put into them. Sure I love my Challenger best. Not because of what it's worth or not worth but because I just plain flat out love the car! If I had all the money in the world my #1 car would still be my 70 Challenger. At the car shows I enjoy meeting people more than seeing the cars. Carlisle is the highlight of my summer and really enjoy meeting up with people that I talk to all year long on here and other forums.
Nothing like car people, especially Mopar folks!

 

[toolmanmike]

Fabo is a great place with thousands of great folks. I have never seen such a caring and compassionate group. There is always a very few with different opinions and a less than stellar way of communicating. Sometimes I type a paragraph and then read it before posting it. What I wrote was wrong or offensive so I just delete it.
I was taught that if you cant say something nice, don't say anything at all. This is my last post on this thread. Time for it to go to the archives. tmm

 

[71 gtx]

I've been owning Mopars for over 30 years, as I have never owned a A body or a C body, I cannot bash one over the other....I still own several E bodies and B bodies....I cannot choose one over another....It does a grave injustice not only to the hobby, but each body style has their own distinct pluses and minuses; To each their own....but don't bash one over the other....we are all in this together....JMO

 

[msbaugh]

I agree, sounds like the same a$$ hole who thinks he's better than me because he was around when these cars were new and I wasn't. I hate the fact that I get no respect simply because I'm younger. I'm a prime example that not all e-body owners are rich, snobby jerks who have too much money to play with in during their midlife crisis.

I hate it, but can't say I don't understand... A 50 year old man see's a guy in his 20's pull up in a 70 challenger with a 440, what is he supposed to think? Everywhere I go I get snobby remarks and piss poor comments...

 

[ramenth]

Let me clarify something before this thread goes the wrong direction. Fabo is a great place with thousands of great folks. I have never seen such a caring and compassionate group. There is always a very few with different opinions and a less than stellar way of communicating. Sometimes I type a paragraph and then read it before posting it. What I wrote was wrong or offensive so I just delete it.
I was taught that if you cant say something nice, don't say anything at all. This is my last post on this thread. Time for it to go to the archives. tmm

Mike, I don't see where anyone, myself included, has impugned FABO's reputation as a whole. Those of us who are members there see the community over there and the good it does. There is no doubt.

I can't see you getting pissed because of this thread. I put this up here, first to get it off my chest with fellow E-body owners and second to see if anyone has dealt with this kind of prejudice in face to face meetings.

I guess I'm just dumbfounded how a contingent of Mopar fans can dismiss another Mopar fan in general just because of the car he or she owns. I don't get it. As it's been stated, "we're all in this together." Maybe I can relate to this statement because to me it's always been Mopar vs. the world. Thirty years ago you were an idiot for owning a Mopar, any Mopar. No parts were available except some odds and ends. If you wanted speed parts you had to go back to Mopar to get 'em. And they weren't cheap. Oh, Offy, Iskey, and a few others made parts for us, but by in large we were ignored by the aftermarket.

Back then it didn't matter if you were an E-body owner, an A-body owner, or even just owned a D-series pick up. Mopar guys recognized each other for being passionate about cars that were just above AMC on the bottom rungs of the ladder for just about everything.

Now the world has flipped. The aftermarket who ignored us for years can't meet the demand for parts fast enough. Collectors and restorers who ignored Mopars for years have increased the demand and the dollars for rare cars that Mopar produced. The demand has always been there, but as a club of owners, not matter what the body style, we've now just gotten recognized within the last ten-fifteen years. But, to a large extent, we're still on the outside looking in as compared to parts which are available to GM and Ford.

But there's a divide in the hobby coming down to ownership of body styles and I don't get it. I don't consider my '74 Barracuda to be superior to my nephew's '72 Duster or vice versa. Truthfully, I cant wait for the day when we're driving to the cruises and shows together. Both will be cars to be proud of and true Mopar guys will recognize that.

I don't know, maybe that's where the little shows get it right. Cars are on the show field, all makes, all models, put together for the attendees to walk around and look at. The bigger shows divide us into classes. Maybe it's time to give up on the idea of the dividing the shows by body style and let folks park in an as you come in kind of way. Then maybe folks will talk to each other.

 

[74CudaDave]

Robert, I hear your frustration. Don't let it get to you. This is just an example of free speech in action gone too far. And this isn't a critisizm of anyone involved in this thread at all. But it's like religion, politics, or any other topic. Heck, I've heard people argue over cream versus coffee-mate. People feel they have a right to say what they want, and they do. The only thing is, it's gotten to the point where they say it without really considering who they are offending - or they do, but just don't care. And there will always be someone who feels the opposite opinion just as strongly - thus begins the argument. Debate is healthy, as long as it's respectful. We just have to know where to draw the line - liking a particular subject, or holding a certain belief, doesn't mean the other side of the argument is wrong.

Just my 2 cents. Don't let it get to you. Group hug, everyone!!!

 

[btceng]

This subject is far too deep for me. I come here because it's where I landed in a search for information and camaraderie. It's been more than pleasurable for me. I enjoy the site and the folks here. It's much more laid back than most and I appreciate the work done to keep it that way.

I hide a bit in here, not being a Mopar purist, but I love the hobby not just a brand. I have grown to love my Challenger the most and the engineering behind it. Thanks to all that have helped make it a doable project for someone with limited experience. I do believe that this is the purpose of the site.

 

[JH27N0B]

A lot of cars from over the years catch my eye, and one group that always catches my eye are tri-power cars. Around my area, there are lots of neat Pontiacs. At one cruise me and another Challenger owner friend were admiring a tri-power mid 60's Bonneville and started chatting with its owner. We asked him about a big all Pontiac show, and he said it wasn't something he wanted to participate in again because the GTO owners were such snobs towards the guys with other Pontiacs. My friend had heard about that before, but I was sort of shocked to hear that!
So it isn't just a E body v other Mopar thing. In fact, I have heard more griping about Viper owners than I have about E body owners. At any rate, I think some of the resentment about E bodies is because they tend to bring the biggest bucks of the vintage Mopars, in which case it is envy and resentment.
The other thing I think is important to think about, is that we sometimes don't realize how our words are going to be interpreted when we post or email. I've had friends get bent out of shape about emails I've sent, when I had no intention of stepping on their toes. If we'd been talking in person, there wouldn't have been a problem or misunderstanding, but with online communications there is no body language to show if someone is joking around, or for someone to pick up on that someone might be offended and you need to chill out or clarify your position before the other person gets really upset.
I had a situation on another E body board, where a member stepped on my toes with a post. On another topic later, he posted contrary to something I had replied to the OP's question. As I already had a chip on my shoulder from our previous run in, I replied with some nasty comments about him. He then PM'd me and said something like hey, I don't want any enemies, maybe we got off on the wrong foot, can we patch things up?
I PMd him back and explained how that previous exchange had been a sore subject for me but he probably wouldn't have had any way of knowing that and I may have overreacted. (It was about a product he'd purchased and bragged it was US made, and I had been laid off from that company a few years earlier when they had started to shut down US manufacturing and move everything to China, and had tried to inform people with my post that the company was no longer a US manufacturer).
At any rate, we had a nice exchange, and became friends. I was impressed at the mature way he'd handled that situation, rather than argue online and drag us both down, he'd defused the situation by sending me a PM and we ended up clearing up our misunderstandings.
I tell this because in some situations, if someone is being somewhat of a jerk on a forum, it might be good to send the guy a PM and diplomatically try to diffuse the situation. Not PM the guy saying "your a jerk" but something like that guy on the other board did with me. "Hey, maybe there is a misunderstanding but I took what you posted sort of personally. I am a Mopar guy and Mopar guys are great, so maybe we can clear things up and be on good terms?"
Some people out there are beyond redemption though I know, I have been a member of the largest Mopar forum for years, and I know a lot of people who have left there or just lurk rather than posting any more because they have been so turned off by the haters and losers there that seem to have nothing better to do than try to cut other guys down. I've got a couple guys there that seem to lay in wait waiting to snipe at me when I post, and I sure don't get it. Never met either of these clowns, one guys name is about corvettes on a Mopar board, and from his posts it is obvious he never matured beyond age 7 or so emotionally despite being around 40, so I guess I sort of temper my anger at him by feeling sorry for him, the other sniper I have no clue where the guy is coming from (mental hospital?). But nevertheless, this has no place in the Mopar family.
I guess the only other thing I can add, is when you take your ebody to a show or cruise, make sure to be friendly to the guys with the other Mopars or brand X cars parked next to you and show interest in their cars. Be a diplomat of sorts for ebody owners! It is hard for them to hate us if we kill them with kindness!

 

[Cranky]

I'm never a fan of someone accusing me of being something I'm not, while in the process the accuser is displaying tendencies of being what he's accusing me of being.

Amen to that!!

Just relax enjoy those you make friends with and enjoy your cars.

Amen to that too!

Might get banned from here but..... I also would love a 70-71 Torino Cobra GT!

Any moderator that does that for just saying what you just did should be burned at the stake! I only own one old Mopar but used to have a dozen and also owned several 65-66 Mustangs and a few mid 50's Chevys...

I agree, sounds like the same a$$ hole who thinks he's better than me because he was around when these cars were new and I wasn't. I hate the fact that I get no respect simply because I'm younger. I'm a prime example that not all e-body owners are rich, snobby jerks who have too much money to play with in during their midlife crisis.

I hate it, but can't say I don't understand... A 50 year old man see's a guy in his 20's pull up in a 70 challenger with a 440, what is he supposed to think? Everywhere I go I get snobby remarks and piss poor comments...

I'm 60 and think it's cool for someone young to latch onto one of these old cars!! But what gets my goat at times is when someone young comes around and starts quoting what they've read in a book. That's well and good but there were many errors made in books. Even the factory made mistakes but some things just didn't happen...for example, a 72 big block Cuda with a 6 pack or a 70 RT Challenger small block. Yup, had someone try and tell me it happened. It's hard to learn this stuff and sometimes the info in print is misleading. There are many tho that grew up with and experienced it first hand. I've found the best info sources are the people who worked on the assembly lines and also people who worked in the wrecking yards (that Galen dude is pretty good too it seems). Wrecking yards sounds kinda odd but if you think about it, there's always someone that wrecked brand new cars lol and the big city yards got their fair share of new wrecks. Man, I parted lots of E bodies during the mid 70's and it's been about 15 years since I've owned one and CRS is kicking in big time lol

 

[msbaugh]

I'm 60 and think it's cool for someone young to latch onto one of these old cars!! But what gets my goat at times is when someone young comes around and starts quoting what they've read in a book. That's well and good but there were many errors made in books. Even the factory made mistakes but some things just didn't happen...for example, a 72 big block Cuda with a 6 pack or a 70 RT Challenger small block. Yup, had someone try and tell me it happened. It's hard to learn this stuff and sometimes the info in print is misleading. There are many tho that grew up with and experienced it first hand. I've found the best info sources are the people who worked on the assembly lines and also people who worked in the wrecking yards (that Galen dude is pretty good too it seems). Wrecking yards sounds kinda odd but if you think about it, there's always someone that wrecked brand new cars lol and the big city yards got their fair share of new wrecks. Man, I parted lots of E bodies during the mid 70's and it's been about 15 years since I've owned one and CRS is kicking in big time lol[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you! I'm no know it all believe me and I'll be the first to admit that! I owe it all to my father and guys like y'all who are always willing to help me out... someone has got to keep the cars around you know!

 

[msbaugh]

Plus whenever I'm at shows I'm always walking up to owners, bugging them, asking questions and chatting. ITs a learning experience for me everytime, and i need the help believe me lol. It doesn't matter what kind of Mopar it is I'm always interested, even if it's something different I just love all the classics. ...Now a guy in a little Honda civic might be different, by no means would I be rude, but honestly looking at stuff like that just isn't fun

 

[3404speed]

In essence, if someone pulls attitude about how one Mopar is superior to another, they are somewhat ignorant to the top fact that nearly all of them were built practically the same way. Beauty is only skin deep.
Body styles, drivetrains, and options differentiate the cars themselves, but slant six cars rolled down the same production line with 440 cars.
I really like a variety of Mopars, as I'm sure many others do, and have had experiences driving and owning a variety of models and engines, each has it's qualities.
I just enjoy and move on down the line....