Timing Issue

[sdcbowler]

Where to start.......

The first start-up of the day, with the e-choke engaged is ok. After the car heats up, is when the problems start. I have to use the fast idle cam to get it running. If I try to push the throttlle, the engine dies immediately. I haven't been able to set the timing because I can't even see the timing marks. The car has electronic ignition. Now, my aftermarket harness is for an E.I. system. The one thing I noticed is that the ECU plug in the harness has five socket while the orange box only has 4 pins.......meaning one of the sockets in the harness has nothing to connect to. In the pics, it is the green wire with red tracer that would connect the missing pin to the ballast resistor.

I would like rule out the differences between the harness and the ECU as being a possible cause of the problem before I move on to other troubleshooting measures. Also, the car has a dual balast.

Thanks for any advice

 

[Deathproofcuda]

Five sockets in the plug vs. four pins on the orange box is not your issue. That is normal. When Chrysler first introduced electronic ignition in 72, the boxes had 5 pins. At some point that changed, but I don't remember when or why off the top of my head. The newer 4 pin boxes are designed to be compatible with the original style 5 socket plugs.

If it were me, the first thing I would try to do is to figure out why I couldn't see the timing marks.

What carb are you running? When you say that you have to use the fast idle cam to get it to run when hot, are you resetting the choke closed, or is it just that you are using the fast idle cam to bump up the idle speed? If you hit the throttle and then the car dies, it sounds like the accelerator pump isn't working.

Good luck with it.

 

[sdcbowler]

Five sockets in the plug vs. four pins on the orange box is not your issue. That is normal. When Chrysler first introduced electronic ignition in 72, the boxes had 5 pins. At some point that changed, but I don't remember when or why off the top of my head. The newer 4 pin boxes are designed to be compatible with the original style 5 socket plugs.

If it were me, the first thing I would try to do is to figure out why I couldn't see the timing marks.

What carb are you running? When you say that you have to use the fast idle cam to get it to run when hot, are you resetting the choke closed, or is it just that you are using the fast idle cam to bump up the idle speed? If you hit the throttle and then the car dies, it sounds like the accelerator pump isn't working.

Good luck with it.

I agree concerning the timing marks. I just wanted to be certain that the pin issue had nothing to do with it. Now that I know, I will focus on finding the reason why I cannot see the marks. I have an edelbrock AVS2. I will look down the carb while operating the throttle and see if I can see any fuel squirts.

Thanks for the reply and advice.

 

[moparleo]

What engine ?

 

[sdcbowler]

What engine ?

Its a 413cid

 

[Chryco Psycho]

Probably going lean as you open the throttle causing it to stall .
the resistor for the 5th pin was part of the ballast resistor , they moved that resistor internal inside the orange box so the 5th wire does nothing & you can use the single ballast for the coil only .
You can set tiing by ear as I mentioned , it is far more accurate than a lite as the engine will tell you where it wants the timing for best performance .

 

[sdcbowler]

Probably going lean as you open the throttle causing it to stall .
the resistor for the 5th pin was part of the ballast resistor , they moved that resistor internal inside the orange box so the 5th wire does nothing & you can use the single ballast for the coil only .
You can set tiing by ear as I mentioned , it is far more accurate than a lite as the engine will tell you where it wants the timing for best performance .

OK.
I purchased a single ballast resistor. Will install it this week. I won't worry about the missing pin or the mating socket.

These are the steps I plan to take:
1. I will cut or wrap the GN/R* wire out of the way. It's the wire that would connect to the 5th pin.
2. I will connect the brown and blue wires to one side of the resistor.
3. Splice the two blue wires together and connect to the other side of the resistor.
I am assuming the resistor is non-polarized so it doesn't matter from left to right.

Does this sound correct to you?

 

[Xcudame]

And here I thought I was the only one getting ready to play with a 413 for something different!
DearhProofCuda and Physco Chryco are correct, the 4 pin/5 pin is not this issue. My dad used to say, "Crank the Distributor until she talks to you! Then back her off a little bit!" Definitely sounds like a lack of fuel issue (carb, filter clogged, fuel pump?).

 

[sdcbowler]

And here I thought I was the only one getting ready to play with a 413 for something different!
DearhProofCuda and Physco Chryco are correct, the 4 pin/5 pin is not this issue. My dad used to say, "Crank the Distributor until she talks to you! Then back her off a little bit!" Definitely sounds like a lack of fuel issue (carb, filter clogged, fuel pump?).

All are new, but I will start with the carb. I have two filters....one before and a clear one after the fuel pump. I can see its getting fuel at least to the carb. Will see if I can notice any squirts in the bowl. Incidentally, today I checked my coil. The primary resistance fluctuated between 0.7 and 0.9. I think this may be out of spec. The secondary was 9.29, which appears to be within range. SHould I replace the coil as well?

Thanks.

 

[Xcudame]

I think you check the primary coil resistance with the ballast resistor in series which adds approximately 0.5 ohms. The secondary resistance should be around 9500 to 11000 ohms!

 

[sdcbowler]

I think you check the primary coil resistance with the ballast resistor in series which adds approximately 0.5 ohms. The secondary resistance should be around 9500 to 11000 ohms!

That ould pretty much put both readings on the low side but possibly still within range. I'll continue with what I have for now. If I am still having trouble, I'll retest to see if they are still within range.

Thanks much

 

[Chryco Psycho]

Never use a filter before the fuel pump unless you like walking , there is a fine sock in the tank so nothing will get through to damage the pump the filter should Always be on the pressure side .
When testing for spark are you getting a blue spark at least 1/4" long if so you are OK .

 

[moparleo]

First part of the post was that he couldn't set timing because he can't see the marks.
So first lets make sure the cap and distributor are set to factory specs. Here is the factory service manual diagram oin installation of a B/RB distributor.
Next determine actual TDC with a piston stop. Either home made or store bought tool. Also check that the outer ring on the balancer has not slipped due to age/contamination.

 

[sdcbowler]

First part of the post was that he couldn't set timing because he can't see the marks.
So first lets make sure the cap and distributor are set to factory specs. Here is the factory service manual diagram oin installation of a B/RB distributor.
Next determine actual TDC with a piston stop. Either home made or store bought tool. Also check that the outer ring on the balancer has not slipped due to age/contamination.

View attachment 109578

Good news,

Today I was able to set the timing to 0 degrees TDC as an initial starting point. I will do a bit of research to see what the actual timing should be, then I will set the initial timing. The starting issue and the engine dying once I applied the throttle was because the RPMs were too low. I set it at about 900. Once I set the timing to factory specs as a starting point, which is about 2.5 degrees BTDC, I'll work on the advance. I have an advance timing light that is currently set at zero like the current timing.. After setting the timing, I think I am supposed to turn the dial on the timing light to the number of degrees of advance that I want, which should cause the timing mark to move........Not yet sure how much advance. Then I would rotate the distributor until the timing mark lines back up with the initial setting. This is what I picture in my mind .

Any advice or instructions would be greatly appreciated.

My rotor is pictured just as it is in the diagram above. I used a combination of my compression tester and a piston stop. Also did the rotate clockwise, mark balancer, rotate CCW, mark balancer, measure the distance, divide by two and mark the balancer 0 degrees TDC. It was good to see it lined up with the initial marking on the balancer. Although my engine is a 413, it has a 440 crank and balancer. I think it may also have 440 connecting rods, but am not 100% sure on that one.

Thanks to all and more to come

 

[Deathproofcuda]

Good news,

Today I was able to set the timing to 0 degrees TDC as an initial starting point. I will do a bit of research to see what the actual timing should be, then I will set the initial timing. The starting issue and the engine dying once I applied the throttle was because the RPMs were too low. I set it at about 900. Once I set the timing to factory specs as a starting point, which is about 2.5 degrees BTDC, I'll work on the advance. I have an advance timing light that is currently set at zero like the current timing.. After setting the timing, I think I am supposed to turn the dial on the timing light to the number of degrees of advance that I want, which should cause the timing mark to move........Not yet sure how much advance. Then I would rotate the distributor until the timing mark lines back up with the initial setting. This is what I picture in my mind .

Any advice or instructions would be greatly appreciated.

My rotor is pictured just as it is in the diagram above. I used a combination of my compression tester and a piston stop. Also did the rotate clockwise, mark balancer, rotate CCW, mark balancer, measure the distance, divide by two and mark the balancer 0 degrees TDC. It was good to see it lined up with the initial marking on the balancer. Although my engine is a 413, it has a 440 crank and balancer. I think it may also have 440 connecting rods, but am not 100% sure on that one.

Thanks to all and more to come

Forget about factory specs. Fuels today are different and many of the factory timing specs were retarded to optimize emissions, not performance. You will likely find out that your engine is happy with alot more advance, like in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 degrees BTC at idle. However, if decide to advance it this far you may have to decrease the amount of mechanical advance that the distributor provides so as not to exceed about 34-38 degrees at WOT. Uncle Tony has some good videos on his Youtube channel about setting timing and modifying Mopar distributors to limit the mechanical advance.

 

[Challenger RTA]

Can you show a picture of you motor. someone here might see the problem. I was going to ask if you static timed it. Is that what you meant when you replied. "Today I was able to set the timing to 0 degrees TDC as an initial starting point. " Was the motor out of a truck or other. Just catching up here.

 

[sdcbowler]

Forget about factory specs. Fuels today are different and many of the factory timing specs were retarded to optimize emissions, not performance. You will likely find out that your engine is happy with alot more advance, like in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 degrees BTC at idle. However, if decide to advance it this far you may have to decrease the amount of mechanical advance that the distributor provides so as not to exceed about 34-38 degrees at WOT. Uncle Tony has some good videos on his Youtube channel about setting timing and modifying Mopar distributors to limit the mechanical advance.

OK,
What I meant about the factory spec and timing is just a baseline and a starting point. As quoted by some, I can listen to the engine and test drive to see where it is performing the best. Also, I have read about some of the limiter plates that can be installed in the distributor.

 

[Challenger RTA]

Bringing things forward.
1 The first start-up of the day, with the e-choke engaged is ok. After the car heats up, is when the problems start. Reply: It will fall on it's face when accelerating. choke completely open and accelerator pump isn't working.When motor off can you see the carb squirt. two filters,Get rid of the back fuel filter
2 The one thing I noticed is that the ECU plug in the harness has five socket while the orange box only has 4 pins. Point made not a problem.
3 Couldn't set timing because he can't see the marks. Although my engine is a 413, it has a 440 crank and balancer. I think it may also have 440 connecting rods, but am not 100% sure on that one. As Moparleo suggested and Myself I would strike more marks. 2 marks and then thee marks just to see where the timing is at, as said did it slip? Think simple,check distributor bushing for wear, cap cracked or corrosion, correct parts. vacuum advance working
4 The car has electronic ignition, electronic distributor or mechanical? Wrong size condenser will shot out or hit against housing. seen it happen.
5 You ask. Should I replace the coil as well? I would put one on just to eliminate it. you might have loose wires when revving and causing a problem. borrow one to see.

 

[sdcbowler]

Can you show a picture of you motor. someone here might see the problem. I was going to ask if you static timed it. Is that what you meant when you replied. "Today I was able to set the timing to 0 degrees TDC as an initial starting point. " Was the motor out of a truck or other. Just catching up here.

As of yesterday, I was not having any of the former problems with the engine running. I guess saying I 'timed' the engine was the incorrect term. I wanted an initial baseline and starting point from which to 'set' the actuall timing. Previous, due to the carb not being properly adjusted, I was unable to see the timing mark. That Issue has been solved.

The engine is a 413 cid industrial engine, but does not have the stock cam.

Hope this answered your questions

 

[Deathproofcuda]

OK,
What I meant about the factory spec and timing is just a baseline and a starting point. As quoted by some, I can listen to the engine and test drive to see where it is performing the best. Also, I have read about some of the limiter plates that can be installed in the distributor.

Sounds good. Just wanted to make sure that you didn't get hung up on using the factory timing spec. I previously made that mistake and ran my 70 383 4-speed car at the factory timing setting of TDC. It was a dog! Good luck getting everything dialed in. Sounds like you are on your way.