thank you for your wishes TC and I will try and get some pictures up. But don't worry, I didn't take offence, although I was a little worried that you had misread or misunderstood my post, so I just wanted to clarify that. And please don't feel you should keep opinions to yourself, that's the nature of forums (50% opinion 50% fact !!). Some opinions are enlightening, some are biased, some are wrong, but they all go into the Mopar Pot, get cooked and served up !
New camshaft installation Q's
- Thread starter 70Hardtop
- Start date
thank you for your wishes TC and I will try and get some pictures up. But don't worry, I didn't take offence, although I was a little worried that you had misread or misunderstood my post, so I just wanted to clarify that. And please don't feel you should keep opinions to yourself, that's the nature of forums (50% opinion 50% fact !!). Some opinions are enlightening, some are biased, some are wrong, but they all go into the Mopar Pot, get cooked and served up !
moper
Well-Known Member
Degreeing a cam is to make sure that the tolerance stacking and manufacturing of the crank, timing components, and camshaft allow the cam to be "in" where the manufacturer says it should be. Read the posts about lazy engines with low cylinder pressure and understand this is all preventable. IMO it is a risk and big sign of ignorance not to degree it. Kits are nice, but the only thing that is harder to source is the wheel itself. So if the cost of a kit is so prohibitive, I'd suggest you look at the $22 degrer wheel alone. Shipping will me much less and cheaper dial indicators are easy to come by as is a home made piston stop. You spent the money on the parts and possibly the labor. Why not ensure you get everything you paid for? Dot-to-dot works for stock applications that have no aftermarket parts or machining. Once those are upgraded, you really need to verify it all works right together. I still use a home made pointer, piston stop, and cheapo wheel I bought decades ago.
Springs can be used old provided they have the ability to work with the lift. Comp says remove the inners for any dual spring assembly. You can leave the dampener in the outer. Assemble with inners, break in the cam, and keep the peak rpms below 4K until the inner springs are installed and you're good. You should also be checking for lifter rotation during assembly, I like using a break in paste, not liquid (so it sticks to the lifter faces), and ensuring the engine is not rotated too much before it's fired. That includes installing it, and preoiling. It also has to start immediately once the key is turned, and be able to run for the full break in time without shutting it down.
Springs can be used old provided they have the ability to work with the lift. Comp says remove the inners for any dual spring assembly. You can leave the dampener in the outer. Assemble with inners, break in the cam, and keep the peak rpms below 4K until the inner springs are installed and you're good. You should also be checking for lifter rotation during assembly, I like using a break in paste, not liquid (so it sticks to the lifter faces), and ensuring the engine is not rotated too much before it's fired. That includes installing it, and preoiling. It also has to start immediately once the key is turned, and be able to run for the full break in time without shutting it down.
I agree with all that Moper and it has enlightened me a little more on the reasons for doing it. Jus one type error, you said "assemble with the inners" but you previously said to pull the inners out, so you meant, to assemble with just the outers. I am wondering though, how much extra compression force is there with the dampers in, compared to without them? ie, how much do they contribute to spring force?
Anyway, imagine spending all that money on new quality parts and all the care and effort in building it but not making the extra effort to ensuring the cam is working at it's true specifications. I have the proper break-in cam lube and I am also searching for some zinc additive for the oil. Not so easy around here, I might have to get some from the US.
I have just ordered a cheapy dial indicator from Ebay (Au$36 incl post, so that's about $23US) And I may buy a degree wheel or I may print one from some links that other people have given me, to printable degree wheels.
Anyway, imagine spending all that money on new quality parts and all the care and effort in building it but not making the extra effort to ensuring the cam is working at it's true specifications. I have the proper break-in cam lube and I am also searching for some zinc additive for the oil. Not so easy around here, I might have to get some from the US.
I have just ordered a cheapy dial indicator from Ebay (Au$36 incl post, so that's about $23US) And I may buy a degree wheel or I may print one from some links that other people have given me, to printable degree wheels.
js29
Well-Known Member
It is said that diesel engine oil has zinc in it. that is what I use.
Steve340
Well-Known Member
Get a proper degree wheel as the inaccuracy you will surely get will mean in my book just don't bother, throw the cam in and hope for the best.
Another option is find someone local with the required equipment and pay them to check cam timing.
The first couple of times I did it I had to work out what I needed and how to do it properly.
I made most of my own stuff but accuracy of every part of the degreeing process is very important.
You must find true TDC and nothing must move after that or your readings will be off.
Degreeing the cam properly may seem easy but there are a few tricks to it.
You must also rotate the engine smoothly all jerky is no good and this can be tricky with the piston rings fitted if you do not have the right equipment to rotate the crankshaft.
Another option is find someone local with the required equipment and pay them to check cam timing.
The first couple of times I did it I had to work out what I needed and how to do it properly.
I made most of my own stuff but accuracy of every part of the degreeing process is very important.
You must find true TDC and nothing must move after that or your readings will be off.
Degreeing the cam properly may seem easy but there are a few tricks to it.
You must also rotate the engine smoothly all jerky is no good and this can be tricky with the piston rings fitted if you do not have the right equipment to rotate the crankshaft.
Diesel huh? that's interesting - thanks for the tip, will look into that
Yeah I knew my old printer would not be good enough, I was going to take the picture or the file down to a photographics place and get it printed out. I have noticed that there are all different diameter degree wheels, the larger they are more expensive. Larger = more accurate. Also thanks for the tips. I will be reading up on it too.
moper
Well-Known Member
Sorry - I did mis-type that one Dart...
The dampeners do not add any to the spring's pressure. It negates certain harmonics that if left unaddressed would make the spring lose control of the valve at a lower rpm. If they get damaged in removal or install you could change the effectiveness of it. So leave that in. Just remove the inners. They add significant pressure.
Some other notes...
1. When assembling, install the cam dry. Use WD40 to lube the lifter faces and bores, and drop them in place. Use a permanent marker to draw a line from the lifter top edge to the lifter bore casting. Then turn the engine by hand and 3-4 complete rotations. Look to make sure the marks no longer align, indicating that each lifter has rotated in the respective bore. If they some don't, swap a few around until they all do. Then pull the lifters out and keep them in order. Install the lifters last, just before the intake so they are not in contact with the cam lobes while you're turnign the crank for other stuff. I use a cam breakin past by Crane rather than any additive or liquid. I apply it to the cam lobes (cam still installed) and lifter bases (bottoms only) with an acid brush and drop them back into the bores.
2. Be very careful once the lifters are in to not turn it unless you have to. Use a shaft to preoil the engine, and rotate minimally to verify top end oiling and bolting in.
3. Make sure the cooling system is close to full (I use only water for "first starts") and in good enough shape to last through the break in. A box fan helps blowing accross the radiator.
4. Preoil again once it's in the car, this time no need to verify top end - just get the filter and lower end pressurized.
5. Verify the ignition has spark. Various systems have different tests so find yours and make sure.
6. Fill the carburetor bowls with fuel carefully rather than turning the engine with the starter to fill it. With full bowls it will run plenty long enough to allow the pump to prime and keep up.
The trick is to have it turn over maybe once and fire right up, because that lube will only stay on the camshaft a few rotations, and then the oil splashing off the camshaft does it from that point forward. At idle and lower rpm there isn't enough oil coming up off the crank and THAT is what kills the camshaft. Once it's broken in you can install the inner springs. I normally leave them out for a few times more out of habit then techincal need. I also use a running stand to make sure of no leaks and easy access for retorques or if there is a problem.
As for break in oil - the ones designed for that purpose are good. Deisel oils have more zink typically but research that where you are. It might be different for US stuff (SAE/CAFE standards).
The dampeners do not add any to the spring's pressure. It negates certain harmonics that if left unaddressed would make the spring lose control of the valve at a lower rpm. If they get damaged in removal or install you could change the effectiveness of it. So leave that in. Just remove the inners. They add significant pressure.
Some other notes...
1. When assembling, install the cam dry. Use WD40 to lube the lifter faces and bores, and drop them in place. Use a permanent marker to draw a line from the lifter top edge to the lifter bore casting. Then turn the engine by hand and 3-4 complete rotations. Look to make sure the marks no longer align, indicating that each lifter has rotated in the respective bore. If they some don't, swap a few around until they all do. Then pull the lifters out and keep them in order. Install the lifters last, just before the intake so they are not in contact with the cam lobes while you're turnign the crank for other stuff. I use a cam breakin past by Crane rather than any additive or liquid. I apply it to the cam lobes (cam still installed) and lifter bases (bottoms only) with an acid brush and drop them back into the bores.
2. Be very careful once the lifters are in to not turn it unless you have to. Use a shaft to preoil the engine, and rotate minimally to verify top end oiling and bolting in.
3. Make sure the cooling system is close to full (I use only water for "first starts") and in good enough shape to last through the break in. A box fan helps blowing accross the radiator.
4. Preoil again once it's in the car, this time no need to verify top end - just get the filter and lower end pressurized.
5. Verify the ignition has spark. Various systems have different tests so find yours and make sure.
6. Fill the carburetor bowls with fuel carefully rather than turning the engine with the starter to fill it. With full bowls it will run plenty long enough to allow the pump to prime and keep up.
The trick is to have it turn over maybe once and fire right up, because that lube will only stay on the camshaft a few rotations, and then the oil splashing off the camshaft does it from that point forward. At idle and lower rpm there isn't enough oil coming up off the crank and THAT is what kills the camshaft. Once it's broken in you can install the inner springs. I normally leave them out for a few times more out of habit then techincal need. I also use a running stand to make sure of no leaks and easy access for retorques or if there is a problem.
As for break in oil - the ones designed for that purpose are good. Deisel oils have more zink typically but research that where you are. It might be different for US stuff (SAE/CAFE standards).
Hey Moper, I really appreciate all that good info, thanks for taking the time to type it out. I have copied that info into my engine information file. There's some new stuff there I wasn't aware of, such as how to ensure the lifters are rotating. Very important. And also that is my biggest fear, that the engine will not fire immediately, so I will read your notes and pay careful attention to that. If you were doing these things very often in a shop, it would be routine to get all these things done and in place but when you only do it once every decade or so, often little things turn into a drag and a worry. Regarding the cam break-in paste, I am a little surprised that the stuff that is normally used is still rather thin. Well it is a paste, but as you say, it can get wiped off quite easily and then diluted quickly with oil. I'm surprised that they haven't made one that is very tacky and thick, like honey on a cold day, stiff and sticky, one that will really adhere to the lobes for a while which is what is needed.
moper
Well-Known Member
Well, the trick for the paste is it should disolve quickly. The intial passes accross the lifter base are protected. The thought is that it fires right away and then there's oil flinging up onto it after that. The paste disolves away, and the friction modifiers go into the oil. My thoughts are the liquid additives go right to the oil, with a small amount staying stuck on the wear surfaces. So the first few swipes may not get protection for as many cycles. Just my opinion, but that's my logic for doing that and using it...lol.
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