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Regular Mini Starter vs Hi-Torque

Mocktwo

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The starter on my 440 Magnum (72 Challenger) is tired and needs to be replaced.
I've been recommended to put in a "mini starter" and there are two choices - a regular Mr. Gasket and a High-torque by Proform for 50 bucks more.
The higher price doesn't concern me, but I'm interested in the pros/cons and recommendations from this forum.
Thanks
 

Cuda Hunter

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Buy American. Better product and lasts longer.

I believe Mr. Gasket is made in America.

Proform is a Tiawan product.

POWER MASTER is made in Chicago, America.


I suggest trying the search engine here. There are 7 pages of info about mini starters. Most are diagnostic questions but they all have info about the starter and the difference's.
 

Mocktwo

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Sorry, I will ... I did originally but missed the "10 pages" advance at the bottom :eek:( my bad.
 

Mocktwo

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Buy American. Better product and lasts longer.

I believe Mr. Gasket is made in America.

Proform is a Tiawan product.

POWER MASTER is made in Chicago, America.


I suggest trying the search engine here. There are 7 pages of info about mini starters. Most are diagnostic questions but they all have info about the starter and the difference's.
I searched "high torque" and "torque" and read thru 4 pages of threads ... Maybe I'm blind, but I found nothing that talked about pros/cons between a regular mini starter or a high torque mini starter. Yes, many people talking about heat issues and headers ...

I do appreciate your "Made in America" feedback. The Mr. Gasket starter I found only specifies "mini", not high-torque. The Powermaster must be full size. The PRoform (although Taiwan which I will avoid) is the only one which specifies "High Torque".

BTW - Mr. Gasket appears to be headquartered and assembly in Carson City, Nevada
 

Challenger RTA

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High-Torque Starters​

By Jim O'Clair from November 2005 issue of Muscle Machines
41677.jpg

Category: Muscle Cars
The conventional positive-engagement starter in your performance machine or street car probably does a pretty good job for the most part. These wound-armature and wound-field starters have been around since the end of the hand-crank era. But, as with just about everything in life these days, somebody found a better way to do the same job more efficiently.

Chrysler was the first manufacturer to incorporate some of this new starter technology, in 1962. Anybody standing within a half-mile of a 1960s or newer Mopar can distinguish the whine of a Chrysler gear-reduction starter without much effort. This type of starter worked well for Chrysler because they were lighter than other starter and solenoid combinations of the day (remember that 16 pounds in 1962 was considered light for a starter) and one starter worked for any engine size application, six- or eight-cylinder, big-block or small-block. Additionally, the gear-reduction system inside the unit made for a more reliable starter drive engagement and fewer "spin-outs" than with a conventional starter. But gear-reduction was only the first step towards the high-torque starters of today. Starter manufacturers, such as Bosch, Mitsubishi and Nippon-Denso, began using gear-reduction starters as early as 1971 for applications such as the Mazda rotary engines or the smaller imported diesel engines, like in the Chevy Luv pickups, Isuzu I-Mark and the Ford Escort diesels. It wasn't until the late 1970s that gas-powered imported cars started using a permanent-magnet, gear-reduction starter (PMGR) as standard equipment.

PMGR starters have no field coils like positive-engagement starters do. This means that power is sent directly to the starter armature through the brushes and commutator, meaning less battery power is wasted energizing the field coils and that less heat is generated by the starter as well. The first gas engines using a PMGR starter were the 1977 Datsun 810 and Honda Civics. Ultimately, American manufacturers started using the PMGR starters in the 1980s (actually with Harley-Davidson becoming the first American builder to use them as standard equipment for their entire product line in 1983). In cars, GM began using a Delco-designed PMGR starter in 1988 Corvettes and Cadillac Allantes. Ford soon followed with their own Motorcraft permanent-magnet version in the 1989 Lincolns. Chrysler opted to use a Mitsubishi or Nippon-Denso-built unit, depending on application. Also Mercruiser, Cobra, Volvo and Yamaha inboard marine manufacturers adopted the PMGR starters as their choice for an original equipment unit about the same time.

The principle behind a PMGR starter is the same principle you could apply at a drag strip if you matched a Honda Civic against a Chevy Nova. The Honda would beat the Nova off the line for the first 50-100 feet, because it has less mass to carry and the engine is reaching its maximum performance faster than the Nova. This means the Honda will reach that "magic" 5,252 rpm when torque and horsepower intersect before the Nova will. The Honda would not be able to make much more of a horsepower gain beyond that point and torque would decrease. When the Nova gets to its peak torque and horsepower the race would be much closer approaching the end of the course (and we assume the Nova would win, based on horsepower). But a starter like the Honda in those first 100 feet would not have to operate longer than a few brief seconds. This means that longer, more sustained power (at a lower torque) is sacrificed in a PMGR starter so that a short burst of high-torque power can be supplied. They could not crank over for as long as a conventional starter, but you really won't need this starter to do that.

When you start shopping for one of these units, the most important thing to remember is torque. Some of the aftermarket starters being sold are rated anywhere from 150-lb.ft. up to 200-lb.ft.

The higher torque starters are specifically designed for 16:1 and higher compression ratios and are not really designed for use in your stock or slightly modified street car. You could end up buying too much torque and spending too much money. Although a 200-lb.ft. starter will work fine in any application, your standard small-block engine will only require 160-lb.ft. if the compression ratio is less than 11:1, or 180-lb-ft. if the compression ratio is higher than 11:1. There seems to be a lot of marketing of PMGR starters by kilowatt ratings. Most are advertised between 1.4kw to 2.0kw, but don't be deceived by the kilowatt rating. Two starters sitting side by side and advertising 1.7kw can have different torque specifications.

The numbers: Manufacturers use this formula to calculate their kilowatt ratings: Kilowatts = (Torque in Newton meters x RPM) ÷ 9,550 Or: Torque in Newton meters = (Kilowatts x 9,550) ÷ RPM Torque can be converted from Newton meters to pound-feet by this equation: Newton meters = Pound-feet x 1.36 Or: Pound-feet = Newton meters ÷ 1.36 Or: Newton meters x 0.7375 = Pound-feet

Torque ratings Because different small motors (like engines) have different RPM ratings, there can be a wide range of 1.7kw starters that produce different amounts of torque. Torque can also be expressed as "the ability of your engine to overcome any forces that hinder rotation." This means that the addition of higher compression ratio pistons, superchargers, new piston rings or even a serpentine belt conversion can make it necessary to use a higher torque starter than your stock engine would normally need.

So buy a starter based on torque rating and engine requirements, not by kilowatt rating.

There are other advantages for using a permanent-magnet starter besides more torque.

PMGR starters are smaller in diameter and allow better clearance in tight mounting situations. They are also offset in design so they are slightly further away from the heat source (i.e. your engine), which can add to the starters' durability as well. They are much lighter than that 15- to 20-pound starter you are pulling out. It's a little bit easier to hold an 8- to 10-pound starter up in the air with one hand while you are lying on your back trying to line up the mounting bolts (also less of a tug on your battery and solenoid wires if it slips out of your hand).

A lighter starter means a lighter (and faster) car for racing applications too. Converting to a PGMR starter can knock 5 to 10 pounds off of your total weight. Usually 100 pounds less weight will gain you about 1/10th of a second in a 1/4-mile.

These starters consume less energy as well. On an average, a permanent-magnet gear-reduction starter will use 50 percent to 60 percent fewer cold-cranking amps to start your engine. This leaves more juice in your battery to operate other equipment and puts less strain on your charging system. The extra starting power virtually eliminates the problem of hot-crank starter failure. Because the technology is fairly recent and rebuilding of these units is just in its infancy, you will find that most aftermarket units offered will be brand new starters and will not require a core trade-in (or second trips to the parts store to return your dirty old unit).

PMGR starters can be adaptable to many engine sizes as well. Some aftermarket GM starters are open-nose, and can work with either small-block or big-block engines. They can also be inverted if necessary for added clearance in applications where an oversized oil pan is being used or where header clearance is a problem. Open-nose starters will function effectively in your daily driver; however, we would recommend that you find one with a closed nose for everyday use applications unless the inverted positioning is needed. The protection of the nose cone will mean less wear and tear on the starter drive, which adds up to extend starter life expectancy.
 
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Challenger RTA

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Permanent-magnet starters also use full ball bearings instead of bushings to suspend rotating assemblies, which translates to less resistance and longer starter life. Because PGMR starters never approach their maximum capacity, they run much cooler than a conventional starter, which also adds to longer life expectancy. Shims may still be needed, as with a conventional starter for proper alignment; however, these are usually included with the new starter, if necessary.

Plus and minus Two important things to remember NOT to do with a PMGR starter: Like any other direct-current or DC motor, they will work in the reverse direction if connected improperly. This can do serious damage, so pay attention to your connections when removing the old starter. Although most aftermarket starters have a diode for reverse polarity protection inside the solenoid, these diodes will fail if the wires are reversed.

Permanent-magnet starters do not respond well to the old "tap on it with a hammer" philosophy. You can do serious and irreparable damage to a permanent-magnet starter by rapping on it, even lightly. This can break the permanent-magnets and the unit will have to be replaced.

Ford starters, like Chrysler, have externally mounted solenoids in original-equipment applications. PMGR starters will have an onboard solenoid, but will be compatible with your existing starting system relays or solenoids. Installing PMGR starters in a Ford requires a conversion kit which sells for anywhere between $6 and $12. Basically, it beefs up the wiring between the fender-mounted solenoid and the starter. The existing battery cable on the key-energized post on the solenoid is moved onto the constant hot post, and the new wiring is attached to the key-energized post by itself.

Battery tips Other factors such as the cold-cranking amps of your battery and the condition of the wiring used in the starter circuit can contribute to the starter's efficiency as well. Old or deteriorated wiring can leak current as it is traveling through the wire.

You certainly don't want to use one of those Granny, Joe and Hack $29.95 batteries to energize this starter either. A good battery makes a big difference too. A minimum of 775 cold-cranking amps is recommended in this application. Notice we said cold-cranking amps (rated at zero degrees) not cranking amps (rated at 32 degrees). This would also be a great opportunity to install the battery disconnect switch you have been considering too. That's a good way to keep the juice in the battery until you want to use it.

Pricing guide Pricing for these replacement starters is very reasonable, considering the advantages of installing one in your performance or street car. Most aftermarket units are available for $100 to $150. Some of the open-nose race applications starters can sell in the $200 range, but most car enthusiasts don't have 16:1 compression engines, so you can definitely get off cheaper than that if you want to.

So, thanks to some modern materials and technology, your muscle car or drag race machine can operate more efficiently and a PMGR starter can help you out with some starter, header or oil pan clearance issues you may have too.

They can do all of this with a very small cash outlay over and above what you would pay for a replacement conventional starter. So, in this particular case, it is OK to embrace technology. Don't be scared to try this one at home. I read this a while back and brought it forward.
 

tonysrt

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I bought a new mini starter from Rock auto for about $75 a few years back and have it on a 472 Hemi and has no problem starting it. A crate motor so only has about 9 to 1 compression.
 

Mocktwo

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Thanks tonysrt, sadly Rock only has remanufactured full size and no mini starters available.
 

tonysrt

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"440 source" lists a mini for $100. Mancini for $110. I bought a spare from 440 source at Carlisle and I believe it was like $90. I have a 71 Cuda & a 74 Duster so I thought it was a good idea to have a spare.
 

moparmarks

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I've been using starters for 1995 Dakota 5.2 from NAPA and Autozone for years on probably over 30 motors from 318's to 528 Hemis. Plenty of torque and compact.
These is one in there somewhere.
 

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Adam

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Yes, I believe most mini starters are the same; mini-van, V-6, V-8, etc. a starter from a Dakota will certainly work. Rockauto from $66..
 

Rons340

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I've been using starters for 1995 Dakota 5.2 from NAPA and Autozone for years on probably over 30 motors from 318's to 528 Hemis. Plenty of torque and compact.
These is one in there somewhere.
That's what I use also. The completely new Gold series starter from the Zone. No problems whatsoever. Plus a nationwide lifetime warranty if you ever need it!
 

Flchallenger

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I have had lots of problems with the the 95 dakota starter with the wire lugs hitting the block and shorting. The top hole on the starter is bigger than the bolt so you need a sleave to take up the space. I made one. Have a 440 with shorter headers in a challenger.
 

Cuda Hunter

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I have the dakota shorty on a 440, a 400, 2-383's and a 318.
Same part, no issues. Sleeve does make a difference.
autozone, oreilie's, napa. I always always buy the mexican/Canadian version over the Chy-na versions.
 

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Flchallenger

"I have had lots of problems with the the 95 dakota starter with the wire lugs hitting the block and shorting. The top hole on the starter is bigger than the bolt so you need a sleave to take up the space. I made one. Have a 440 with shorter headers in a challenger."



You can remove the wire block "adapter" and wire it directly, that's what I did to clear my exhaust.
 

Mocktwo

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Thank you all for your thoughts on starters ... but you are not addressing my question ... "Regular vs Hi-Torque" for mini starters. Seems it may just all be marketing as none of you seem to comment on differences.
 
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