Winter project planning - Stock-ish 440, looking at Trick Flow 240s and a cam.

[Challenger RTA]

A leak down test also a good diagnosis tool.
Cylinder Leak Down Tester Engine Compression Diagnostics Test Tool Kit | eBay

 

[Spyder]

Found time yesterday to pull plugs and stick the camera in it. They look like flat top TRW's to me. Doing google image searches of old TRW slugs, these look exactly the same with the center circle, and are of the right era. I took pictures and they show up good on my phone, but not when I try to put them on here.

Does anyone know what sort of problems I could run into with cam/valves with those pistons? How much lift should I be able to get when I eventually put a cam in in it? Ideally, I'd be able to stick the Lunati 704 in and a set of good aluminum heads and bolt it on, check for clearances, and run it. I'd like to avoid pulling anything out of the bottom end for a while.

Went out afterwards and did some driving with the new tires. Going from the 28 to a 27" tire feels better, and I'm happier with the look than I thought I was going to be so that's a plus!

Now to decide what to do for the upcoming spring and summer season since my original plan went down the drain. Throw a higher stall TC in it, throw a set of heads on it, or just drive it as is until next winters project time.

I went to try and buy the Lunati 704 cam linked to earlier in this thread to put on the shelf last week, but it was sold out and said discontinued! Waited too long... Although there is a listing on amazon for it, but it looks shady from the other items sold descriptions. And there's one at CNC-Motorsports

 

[Spyder]

A leak down test also a good diagnosis tool.
Cylinder Leak Down Tester Engine Compression Diagnostics Test Tool Kit | eBay

Yep, got one. That's one of the first things I did when I started working on this car again. All is well.

 

[Ricks72Chlgr440]

Hello all! New to this forum and looking forward to learning a bunch. Looking for a cam and valvetrain suggestion for the below.

Last year I mostly "finished" a 20 year project of a '72 Challenger. Many many years ago I took the 440 out of a boat that had been built for that and put it in the car. Runs great, has decent power, and I don't NEED to change anything, but it's nowhere near where I want it to be. Forged crank, small valve 915 heads, ~10:1, currently has a junk Offenhauser 360 intake on it with an unknown cam, MSD box and distributor (also, wouldn't have bought the distributor with no vacuum advance if I had read more back probably 15 years ago when I was parts buying) and Edelbrock AVS2. TCI Streetfighter transmission (I wouldn't buy that again, but did it ~10 years ago without researching) and just recently put a Dr. Diff 3.55 Sure Grip in the rear end. It's Sublime, and has electric cutouts for when I want to be obnoxious.

Using the Dragy to check times, my 0-60 and 1/8 mile are just a tad slower than a stock 440 6-pack car would have been. Fun to run around in, but obviously I want more.

I'm pretty heavily considering this kit as a quick winter project: Trick Flow 620 HP PowerPort Top-End Engine Kit for Big Block Mopar 440 78cc chamber CNC ported heads TFS-K616-620-576 - TREperformance.com

It's got a flat hood on it and until I find a T/A hood, I'd like to keep it that way so hood clearance is an issue. That Trick Flow intake won't fit so I've already ordered and am planning to use the Holley SD. No matter what direction I go, I plan to use the Trick Flow 240 heads as they'll work with my current steering and exhaust setup, but am unsure on the cam. I want to keep enough vacuum for power brakes, and I'll likely only take it to the strip once or twice a year, mostly just want a rip around the countryside. I like the idea of 620 hp but realistically it's more than I need and I know that without all the other pieces just right I won't be near that anyway...and I don't want to start breaking other parts in the drivetrain with more power than it's set up for.

Suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I'm not on the technical knowledge or skill level of most of you but can figure it out as I go, and have done came and heads before on an old 68 Sport Fury I drove the crap out of when much younger.

I also recently brought home an ugly but complete and so-far rust free '65 Barracuda that's going to get a similar treatment to this one over the next several years. The Challenger took me 20 to finally get around to finishing, hoping the Plymouth will be 6 or so.

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Love the picture of the U-2, Dragonlady! That car was in great company!!!

 

[Xcudame]

The problem is TRW made two different sets of forged pistons - #2266 (~2.00 CH) and #2355 (~2.06 CH). But I think the #2355 pistons had valve reliefs cut into them. What did your scope pictures show? Regardless, assuming stock deck height, you can run either piston with aluminum heads and the Lunati 704 camshaft. Especially if you use the Fel-Pro 1006 head gaskets (.039" thick). But the #2266 pistons would be to far in the hole for any quench advantage (.040 to .080). Dang Mopar 440s were just made to be stroked to 500+ inches.

 

[Spyder]

Hahaha I'd love to stroke it, but that's a project for another year! If I found a C or B body to put a real obnoxious 440 in I'd love it.

I'm learning loads here, and with the hour or so of other reading I've been doing a night or two a week. Eventually I'll get this thing dialed in just right.

The pistons in my engine look just like the ones here which are the 2266? FOR SALE - NEW TRW L2266 Forged Pistons for 440 Flat Top - .030 over and Rings

I probably should grab that 704 cam that's in stock at cnc motorsports so I have it handy when I find an ambitious weekend...

 

[Xcudame]

Not having quench isn't the "End of the World (and I feel fine)". Even with the lower compression pistons, you will still have a nice 440!

Secret for anyone following this post, any 440 or stroker 440 (yes this includes 383s and 400s that are stroked to 3.75" or more) that have a quench distant between .040 to .080 and around 10:1 compression can make whatever horsepower the camshaft lift is. For example, 440 with .480 cam = 480 HP, .500 cam = 500 HP, etc. But the 500+ stroker engines will make a little more horse power and lots of torque. This is a ball park formula. Mopars rule!

 

[Spyder]

Progress, of a sort. I ordered the Lunati Voodoo 704 cam last night. It'll likely sit on the shelf until next winter at this point, but if I piece together everything between now and then I'll be set. Or, if I stumble across a 400 or 383 block and start a new build...

 

[Challenger RTA]

It's 2 degrees out side now. I check the cameras at the other houses. Going to have a 3rd cup of coffee. The Angel boss went to work. Enough about me. About that 400 or 383 or other. The 400 is in my thought a misplaced step child or misunderstood. I know not much about them other then. I don't think I have seen one in the machine shops that I worked a few years. that might be a testament to them. I'm not an expert but I have done work on Gm 350 Diesel, Cat, Detroit and some many others I forget. I do remember shipmates that had them in their cars A 71 or 73 (?) roadrunner and a few others. They seem to be pretty much trouble free. A little under powered. Until the lean burn era. Then there was the transition period of the PA state police from the 440 to the 400. There was a different difference in them. That was about 74-75 if I recall right. I was working in a garage that did some maintenance on them. someone here might now the magic that is in that block. The 383 and 440's are good. I just think there is something there to look at. Ball Stud Hemi and the 400 B-Block
I don't know if less might be more.

 

[Spyder]

Annnddddd big giant change of plans. Found metal flake in the oil today. Quite a bit. Engine's going to have to come out and I'll figure out a new plan. CNC emailed and said they were sold out of the Lunati cam I bought last night and refunded me (they can make an identical one as a custom grind, for anyone looking for Lunati stuff still).

Now I've got to come up with a plan to rebuild this 440 or find a 400 and make it bigger. Dangitt, not what I wanted on a Friday.

 

[Challenger RTA]

Yank it and break it down to see where you are at.

 

[Xcudame]

The only nice thing the 400 has over the 440 is it's a little narrower and shorter because of the deck height. And it has stronger main webbing than the 440 or 383. When stroking the 400 you obviously get shorter pistons and unfortunately shorter connecting rods. It will rev fast, but I think anything bigger than a 451 (440 crankshaft and .030 over) it's time to go to a 440. The 440 with a 4.25 stroke 505/512 (depending on overbore) is a sweet setup with a decent rod to stroke ratio. But there are some stout 500+ cubic inch 400s out there. And the 383 with 440 crankshaft and connection rods makes a nice 431 to 438 motor!!

 

[Spyder]

I like the extra space of the 400. Until I find a T/A hood for my car, I'm going to keep this flat hood. Makes for a good sleeper-ish, other than the obnoxious color screaming "race me!" I'll have a lot of research and reading and questions in the near future. I'm going into a busy week at work so won't have a chance to mess with it much until next Sunday now, but I'll be reading in the evenings.

...kind of makes me glad I didn't buy the kit I started this thread about, since it would have sucked up most of my engine money and I'd be dead in the water right now.

 

[Spyder]

I spent some time on it yesterday and confirmed bad news. Found the knocking sound and it was external, but there's definitely lots of metal in the oil. No sounds yet but I'm sure they're coming.

Spoke briefly to a local machine shop (Xcuda, I haven't called the one you recommended yet. It's JUST far enough away that I'm going to shoot for this local one first, they're only an hour and a half away instead of 5). They said 3-4 week turnaround for complete build. I'm going to get a little more in depth in conversation with them and put together a plan. That's impressively fast to me, as long as the cost is somewhat in line with what other shops would charge. I don't mind spending a little more to have it done quicker.

Next step is to source a block (have leads on a couple of them and one is a friend who has a 440 block that's free so I'll probably go with it), strip it, and get it up to the shop, have them get into it and see if it's a good candidate to build and, decide exactly which kit to do (planning a 440 source 500 or 512), and order it up.

I've got most of the money set aside for it I think so once I get a block to them it should, in theory, flow together pretty well and I may still have this thing ready for the two big show/cruises I wanted to do.

It's just money, I'll make more of it, right?