Handling question

[plymouth67]

To set ride height you measure from the lowest point of steering knuckle arm ( point B) to floor and from the lowest point of adjuster blade directly below the lowest point of the adjuster blade. The ride height is the difference between A and B A is always greater than B. Do this with a full tank of gas and jounce the car a few times first. The spec is 1 1/8 inch + or - 1/8. Adjust by turning torsion bar adjuster clockwise to raise and counterclockwise to lower. Jounce before each measurement after adjusting. Set one side at time but then double check both sides to make sure their the same when done.

Camber spec is Left 0 to 1 degree positive with 1/2 preferred. Right is 1/4 to 3/4 degree with 1/4 preferred.

Caster for radial tires is 1/2 degree positive to 1 3/4 degree positive, if you can go higher to 2 or 2 1/4 great but usually you can't with the factory control arms. You want both sides the same. This will also increase steering effort and reduce some of the over boosted feel of the power steering.

The Hotchkiss Sport Suspension system gives these cars modern handling and I think is very good investment. Their upper control arms correct for the factory problem of camber and caster change as the suspension moves up and down. Add some chassis stiffening and you will stick right with any new Mustang or Camaro.
Let me know how this works out for you.
Terry

Here is a picture of the print out from the alignment shop. Looks like it's a bit off from what you suggest. All they set was the toe when I took it in. Do you think the adjustments you suggest will make stop hunting when I get on uneven roads?? Even with 17x8 rims on the front?

 

[plymouth67]

Oops...here it is

 

[Mastertech]

Sorry but I didn't receive a picture. Just type out the settings so I can compare.

 

[plymouth67]

Caster- front right 1.3 degrees
front left 1.2 degrees
Camber- front right 0.1 degrees
front left 0.2 degrees
Toe- left and right both are 0.15 degrees
Total toe- 0.30 degrees

 

[Mastertech]

Ok. The key to stopping the hunting is to get more positive caster. Think of how a bicycle fork curves and angles the wheel out in front of a straight line drawn down from where the upper fork goes into the frame. If there was no curve and it was on this line you would find it impossible to steer the bike. This positioning of the wheel axle forward is positive caster and allows you to ride the bike without hands. Positive caster is what keeps the car in a straight line. It is also what returns the steering to straight ahead after a turn. Radial tires roll completely different from bias ply tires. Try pushing your car with bias tires and it will take 3 of 4 guys to do it. With radials only 1 or 2 can roll it easily. The specs you have on your car won't work with radials. Not enough caster so it will hunt all over the road. 1.75 is the minimum you need. It should be equal on both sides. The .25 degree higher camber on the left is to compensate for road crown. You could go with 0 on the right and only .25 on the left. It is not your 8 inch wheels causing a problem. I had 8x15 with G60R15 BF Radial TA all around with these settings and steered and handled like a damn.
Terry

 

[Mastertech]

I just looked up the Hotchkiss recommendations. They state " as much positive caster as you can get".

 

[plymouth67]

Ok...guys at the shop are really cool but mess with GM stuff more than anything...he said if I wasn't happy I could bring it back. I will reach out to them as see if that really holds up...lol. Thanks for your input.

 

[plymouth67]

How much positive caster can you get with factory stuff?

 

[Mastertech]

Usually 1 3/4 I doubt you can get 2 but great if you could. The specs your shop are looking at are the ones for the factory bias tires.

 

[Mastertech]

I have a 96 Ford Ranger 4x4 that the caster specs are 2 to 6 pos with preferred of 4 and the alignment guys argue with me when I want at least 5. With the 265 70R 15 tires at 4 and 3 3/4 it still hunts down the highway. I have to find a different shop that will listen to me. What do I know, I've only been a licensed Mechanic for over 40 years and just maybe I've learned one two things along the way.

 

[12sandwich]

Oops...here it is

View attachment 65015

I doubt the alignment is the problem.
It actually looks pretty good. Higher caster won’t hurt anything.
You do have a slight thrust angle and it’s on the edge of dog tracking, normally I can see a .25 of a degree.
Tear down the outer tie rods and check for a binding in the ball joints. If it takes more than a slight amount of pressure with one hand, on either side there’s the problem.
If nothing you’ll have to check the idler arm, and if moves freely I would be looking at the gearbox.

 

[plymouth67]

I doubt the alignment is the problem.
It actually looks pretty good. Higher caster won’t hurt anything.
You do have a slight thrust angle and it’s on the edge of dog tracking, normally I can see a .25 of a degree.
Tear down the outer tie rods and check for a binding in the ball joints. If it takes more than a slight amount of pressure with one hand, on either side there’s the problem.
If nothing you’ll have to check the idler arm, and if moves freely I would be looking at the gearbox.

Gearbox is new, along with all of the front suspension so I would say that there is not any binding.

 

[12sandwich]

Gearbox is new, along with all of the front suspension so I would say that there is not any binding.

Many times with new parts there is a binding, in particular with some of these kits, with online retailers that incorporate the cheapest parts from China.
Unless you specify Moog or maybe trw or Dana, it’s suspect. Even Moog has a problem now and again.
What you are describing is a memory steer.
Which usually to me, means something’s sticking. you are driving down the road it’s all good on a smooth road, you come across some bumps, maybe uneven pavement, undulation, etc.. and your forced to correct the wheel. Well when you go to correct, you sometimes have a slight binding no movement in the steering, and when you keep moving the wheel it breaks free and subtlety lunges to far causing over correction. So it’s constantly hunting, ping pongs all over. Lol I love that phrase. Hardly notice it on flat roads though.
In order for me to find the problem I have to take the nut off the outer tie rods, and drop it from the spindle and make sure the spindle moves freely. As in two fingers on it, maybe 3. If it takes some force to move, it’s gonna have a memory steer.
So you eliminate anything in the spindle or ball joints being a problem.
If nothing, you move to the idler arm and intermediate shaft. Lastly the gearbox.
I’ve went through 3 gearboxes from parts stores to get 1 good one. They all come from Cardone or Fenton and are suspect in being quality rebuilds.
What’s amazing to me is how many people relay this problem to me, as a loose all over the place problem, and it’s the opposite, it’s tight.
Not that long ago I did a F-250 diesel with Moog ball joints. Customer complained it’s all over the road. I’m like I didn’t have to time to drive it before you got it, it’s a little tight.
He’s like it feels loose though? I go just drive it down some rough backroads 40-50 miles and it should be fine. He says I have to go to Chicago about 90-100 miles and the roads are rough, will that do it? I’m like oh yeah, let me know?
He called next day and said it’s fine.
The point is, it had to loosen up to drive correct.
It wears you out driving something with a memory steer.

 

[Mastertech]

I agree that good parts are the way to go. Moog has always been my choice. New parts are always stiff and need some time to set in and loosen up, usually a few hundred miles will do it. However off shore parts may take a lot longer (or maybe never?)

 

[Leanburn]

Plymouth67. I’m sure you’ve covered this but just in case I’ll tell you my solution. I fought with my car for 2 years with alignments, different tires, adjusting steering box and so on. I finally found a hairline crack in the k member where the lca pivot goes ( if that makes sense ?).

 

[plymouth67]

That makes sense but I dont think I have that problem. I will double check that area though.
Thanks

 

[plymouth67]

Going to resurrect this thread. So, if I'm going to buy something to help out my problem would you guys recommend the Moog offset bushings, tubular upper control arms or, fully adjustable upper control arm?

 

[Ralph]

Do not no much about your issues but talk to Dick at Firm Feel.

I installed the tubular upper control arms and the car corners like its on rails. Love the feel. The rest of the parts I bought from him as well, all good parts.

 

[plymouth67]

Are they Firm Feel control arms?

 

[Mopar Mitch]

For alignment, the most proper and best way, first, is to corner balance the car using scales, then align it with the weight of the driver and how you would typically carry weight in the car (same for balancing). You want as much positive caster as possible, a little negative camber (about -1 degree), and zero toe (or no more than 1/8" toe-in). Changing the upper control arms to any of the aftermarket arms to get these types of specs; a low-cost way is also to use the offset MOOG UCA bushings (installed reverse of their instructions).