Looking for some feedback on fast ratio steering arms?

[valkman]

When driving my stock power steering Challenger the steering can get pretty twitchy especially when switching from one of my modern car. My question is for someone using the a fast ratio steering and idler arms, does it make it feel firmer?

 

[12sandwich]

I wanted to try that on more than one vehicle, it seems the pitman arm and maybe idler arm was longer, and would get into the header pipes.
It most likely would make for a faster ratio steering. I don’t believe it will make it any firmer, they have no feel to begin with.
Low caster could be your culprit. Get the alignment checked, and see if they can dial in some positive caster.

 

[valkman]

Thanks for your input. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's just such adjustment when I 1st drive it, and was curious if it would benefit. I do have a small block with headers so also wondering if that would be problematic?

 

[340challconvert]

The fast ratio arms decrease the turns lock to lock, making the steering respond in a shorter turning radius. A TA box or rebuilt box built to those specs make the steering feel even more like a modern car.
Keep in mind there are many modifications you can make in addition to these two changes; c-body tie rod ends, reinforcement bracket at the steering arm, modifications to the ps pump, and even going to a Borgeson Box.
Here is some light reading on the topic;
http://www.firmfeel.com/articles/MAarticle2011dec.pdf

http://www.firmfeel.com/articles/MAarticle2012feb.pdf

http://www.firmfeel.com/articles/MAarticle2014dec.pdf

 

[12sandwich]

I did the C-body tie rods in Moog last summer, before that some years ago I did the Moog ball joints control arm bushings, strut rod bushings, etc..
This year I put the Borgeson steering conversion in. Roughed in the other day.

box is tiny compared to original, about the same size as the manual box.

 

[valkman]

Why do you need C body tie rods?

 

[12sandwich]

You have to do inner and outer tie rods, and the adjusting sleeves.
They are bigger, mainly the shaft size, not so much the ends.
Probably a little less flex, due to the 11/16” shaft size. Definitely a beefier shaft.
Not really needed, unless your planning on installing new tie rods. Might as well upgrade at that time.

 

[AUSTA]

If your not looking at staying original Borgeson is the go.

 

[AUSTA]

See pics of Borgeson.
If you cut the weld on the steering shaft about 2" up from the end you can use a slide hammer to draw out the old spline then refit using a Toyota landcruiser spine tap into the shaft from where you removed the dodge spline then reweld & pin
The strange thing is the Toyota spline made 45 years later is identacle to the dodge spline.
There are 2 version 1 i used a Toyata universal joint the other same but with a rag joint coupling ,the spline of the Toyota fits straight onto the Borgeson box.

 

[gzig5]

I think I read where the fast ratio arms interfere with the TTI headers. Not sure about other brands. That's the only thing that is holding me back until I figure it out. I assume they are compatible with power steering? The Borgeson stuff looks good too but it's more expensive and seems people have noisy systems lately.

 

[12sandwich]

I was pleasantly surprised that my steering shaft required no shortening, and could be returned to an original steering box if need be. Though I doubt it’ll ever go back.
The steering coupler that came with the kit, is way nicer then the original or most other manufacturers setup. Super tight!

 

[340challconvert]

12sandwhich
The Borgeson looks like it belongs there.
I never wanted to cut the original shaft to install a B box.
That coupling kit made a difference!
Thanks for posting.

 

[GMachineDartgt]

12sandwhich
The Borgeson looks like it belongs there.
I never wanted to cut the original shaft to install a B box.
That coupling kit made a difference!
Thanks for posting.
View attachment 64262

My direct fit coupler will bolt in direct, so cutting is not necessary. I also make hydraulic fittings to resuse the original hoses for a more sanitary look.

 

[12sandwich]

My direct fit coupler will bolt in direct, so cutting is not necessary. I also make hydraulic fittings to resuse the original hoses for a more sanitary look.

This is roughed in and working awesome. Need to reposition the hoses a little, other than that pretty clean.

 

[70RTSE440]

12sandwich, I'm looking at converting my 70 challenger from manual steering to power steering. Did you get the whole kit from Borgeson (pump, pullies and brackets along with the gear box)? If not where did you buy all the parts or was your car always power steering? I'm also wondering what brand are your headers and do they fit good? TTI or something else. I'm looking to replace mine that are 40 years old when I put the 440 back in this winter. Thanks for the answer if this thread is still active.

 

[valkman]

Looks like the pitman arm won't work on my '73. My box has the 1 1/2" shaft vs. The 1 1/4" on the arm

 

[12sandwich]

12sandwich, I'm looking at converting my 70 challenger from manual steering to power steering. Did you get the whole kit from Borgeson (pump, pullies and brackets along with the gear box)? If not where did you buy all the parts or was your car always power steering? I'm also wondering what brand are your headers and do they fit good? TTI or something else. I'm looking to replace mine that are 40 years old when I put the 440 back in this winter. Thanks for the answer if this thread is still active.

I purchased the Borgeson kit with pump, brackets, hoses, box, and steering coupler through Summit racing. They get a plug, super fast shipping.
I’ve only put a handful of miles on car since the conversion, due to weather here, so not a fair review yet. But it seems super tight, and way faster ratio then the original power steering setup. I drove it on numerous short drives, and I don’t move the steering wheel at all to track straight down the road. That’s different.
I run as high a caster as i can get and it has a very modern feel now I very much like.
I think the headers I’m running are still out there, and there just some old school under chassis Hooker super comp 2” primary, collectors are 3 1/2”
Fit is decent, don’t hang to low, starter is doable. I’ve put some tti headers on some customers cars and I like them as well or better.
I’m finally getting the hood on it this week, and if the weather holds out, and there not putting salt down, I may take on a longer short drive to get a better idea how the car drives.

 

[70RTSE440]

12sandwich, thanks for the reply and the info. I ordered the full Borgeson kit from Jegs on their Cyber sale. Got $100 off. Looking forward to installing it and seeing how it drives. I'll put the steering conversion in while the 440 is out. Still shopping for headers. Hard to cough up $1000 for the TTI. Ill post some pics once I get the steering installed.

 

[12sandwich]

12sandwich, thanks for the reply and the info. I ordered the full Borgeson kit from Jegs on their Cyber sale. Got $100 off. Looking forward to installing it and seeing how it drives. I'll put the steering conversion in while the 440 is out. Still shopping for headers. Hard to cough up $1000 for the TTI. Ill post some pics once I get the steering installed.

I’m sure you can shop around for the headers as I’ve seen them for under 600 now and then, and occasionally a project changes plan and a deal pops up.
I actually bought mine for around 55 dollars on fleabay. Took a chance as the seller didn’t offer shipping, and I was the high bidder, and used the lame excuse I didn’t see the local pickup only. He whines a little, but I told him go find a big box and just throw them in it, and whatever is the cost I’ll pay.
58 dollars in shipping later I had the headers a week later. I spent another 50-75 to have a buddy weld the flanges to insure no leaks, and ran them over his mill till they were flat.
Some of nicest sounding headers I’ve owned. I also have Hooker Super comps for my dart.
Looking forward to seeing yours after completion.
You shouldn’t have to align, but if you can find a reputable shop, that will try and max the caster out, Borgeson wants more caster with these boxes.

 

[70RTSE440]

Scary for me to buy any used parts on ebay but I might scan it. I've got some time till I need them. I can always bolt my old ones back on. They work fine, just don't look nice and shiny like the new ceramic coated ones.