Engine won't Turn

[moparleo]

It looks like you guys are quicker than me with these computers. I started writing this thing right after I read the posting with the picture. I see that you covered a few of the things that I mentioned in my posting , so forgive me for anything that was redundant. a

 

[challenger6pak]

If you can't use the tape, measure it out. Measure from 0* to 36*. Go to your balancer and put a dab of paint where 36* is. The chrome balancers look good but can be a pain to work with. To mark them I always use some of my daughters pink nail polish. The brush is easy to get into tight spots on the engine. The pink and other colors show up better than white on the chrome.

 

[dmc8163]

Back Home

My apologies everyone. I was a little too optimistic about when I would return home. Home now and on my way to work on Challenger. Will re-read all your posts first! Dave

 

[dmc8163]

OK friends, here's the good news. I set the initial timing to 12 degrees BTDC. Engine started, warmed up. Set total timing to 40 degrees. Rechecked initial timing and it increased to 19 degrees. Wasn't sure what to do next so I stopped and tightened down the distributor. Installed fan shroud and fan/clutch with no spacer. Restarted and revved to 3,200 rpm with no problem with fan. Engine seems to be running great but of course I haven't test driven it yet. I wanted to ask if there is any more adjustment to the timing needed. I ask because the initial timing is now at 19. I also have a question about the vaccumn advance.I reattached the vac line to the dist. and checked the timing. Total timing was off the chart, way beyond the 40 degrees I set it at with no vac. Is this normal? Thanks, Dave

 

[aussiemark]

Maybe you have the vac hose from the distributor connected to the wrong port in the carb base and it is giving full advance on start up?

 

[moparleo]

Why did you set the total advance to 40 degrees ? Initial timing should be 12-14 Degrees and max should be 34-36 degrees. When reviving the engine to 2400 rpm, you should notice a dropoff when the distributor is turned too far. Timing is always set with the vacuum line disconnected from the vacuum advance on the distributor. You should also cap the line so you don't have a vacuum leak. Do not mess with trying to change the advance curve by turning the screw inside of the vacuum advance. You will just create more problems. By the way, what was your original problem ?

 

[dmc8163]

Original problem was no start. Thanks to members help it's now running. I pulled and plugged the vacuum hose. I set it a 40 based on a You Tube recommendation. OK, right, not a good idea. I'll reset the initial timing to 12 degrees and the total timing to to 34-36 degrees. I don't understand what you mean by noticing a drop off when the distributor is turned to far. A drop in rpm? I won't mess with the vacuum advance thanks I have enough problems.

 

[moparleo]

Its something we use to call power tuning. We used it when we ran a half mile circle track car. Since you are mostly driving with your foot to the floor, low end response was not much of a factor. Basically someone would hold the throttle to approx. 2500 rpms and hold it there. Someone else would rotate the distributor until the rpms would start crapping out. You would lock it down and this way you were getting maximum advance at 2500 rpms.

 

[MOPARMITCH]

Its something we use to call power tuning. We used it when we ran a half mile circle track car. Since you are mostly driving with your foot to the floor, low end response was not much of a factor. Basically someone would hold the throttle to approx. 2500 rpms and hold it there. Someone else would rotate the distributor until the rpms would start crapping out. You would lock it down and this way you were getting maximum advance at 2500 rpms.

I always called that " seat of pants timing " LOL

 

[dmc8163]

I understand. When I reset the timing I'll experiment to distinguish when the rpm starts to fall off. Thanks, Dave

I always called that " seat of pants timing " LOL

 

[IQ52]

This is dark ages timing! With a little more help he will blow this engine up. Set the initial timing approximately 14 degrees and do not run more that 32 degrees total until you learn more about Hemi engines.

Good grief, starting fluid and then 40 degrees advance!

Forget the "seat of the pants" crap.

Some of you are messing with a $16,000 engine about which you seem to know nothing.

 

[moparleo]

Mr IQ52 ? He is getting the 40 degrees advance from "YOU TUBE" We recommend one thing and then he does something else because he heard it or saw it somewhere. Obviously he doesn't have a clue as to what he is doing and we are trying to get him to quit messing around with the timing and distributor and just get it running with a baseline.

 

[VeteranCosmicRocker]

This is dark ages timing! With a little more help he will blow this engine up. Set the initial timing approximately 14 degrees and do not run more that 32 degrees total until you learn more about Hemi engines.

Good grief, starting fluid and then 40 degrees advance!

Forget the "seat of the pants" crap.

Some of you are messing with a $16,000 engine about which you seem to know nothing.

Mr. Smartypants, maybe you should learn to read. Nobody here told him to use starting fluid at 40 degrees, and the comment was a quip. But I guess you're the almighty know-it-all ?

 

[moper]

His words might be coarse, but he's right. Hemis do NOT use a lot of timing like the wedges. Because of the chamber and the plug location they don't need it and too much can make it detonate and kill that engine very quickly and it can happen without you ever hearing a single ping.

In terms of tuning - stop using You Tube. You need to d osome basic ignition setup and then tune the carb. My impression is the carb is a bit off, and coupled with the timing issues it just won;t catch. Also - if the cables are all good, and the thing still turns slow, check the voltages while you're cranking. It's basic diag stuff you can find in the factory service manual. You relly need to familiarize yourself with the basic operation, then look at the Hemi specific stuff. And stay off You Tube.

 

[dmc8163]

Please guys, give me , and each other, a break. I never claimed to know anything about Hemi engines or Mopar restorations. I thought I made it clear that the only reason I undertook this restoration was because an unscrupulous car restoration shop in Nashville, TN stole $60,000 from me and a total of $1.2 million from other car enthusiasts. My mistake for which I will be forever sorry. The money was never recovered. The culprit on the other hand did 5 years in Federal prison and is just finishing up four years in Kentucky state prison. That often happens when you steal a large amount of money from a very pissed off retired Federal law enforcement agent. Anyway, back to the car, I am most fortunate to be able to turn to knowledgeable experts for advice. Without them I would not be as far along as I am. It is difficult to impossible for me to cull the good from the bad advice. I do the best I can. I note that early on I did take the car to my area's Mopar "guru" to address the engine problems. When I got it back the engine barely ran and he declined to work on it further. Here in NC I wasn't able to find anyone that would talk to me in person let alone work on the car. So there you have it, an absolute novice restorer that did more on an engine than change the spark plugs in an engine in his life. So, no more starting fluid. And please is there any consensus as to the correct initial and total timing on an MP crate 426 Hemi with a single Holly 800cfm (I think) carb? I sincerely thank each and everyone of you for help. Dave

His words might be coarse, but he's right. Hemis do NOT use a lot of timing like the wedges. Because of the chamber and the plug location they don't need it and too much can make it detonate and kill that engine very quickly and it can happen without you ever hearing a single ping.

In terms of tuning - stop using You Tube. You need to d osome basic ignition setup and then tune the carb. My impression is the carb is a bit off, and coupled with the timing issues it just won;t catch. Also - if the cables are all good, and the thing still turns slow, check the voltages while you're cranking. It's basic diag stuff you can find in the factory service manual. You relly need to familiarize yourself with the basic operation, then look at the Hemi specific stuff. And stay off You Tube.

 

[IQ52]

North Carolina! Contact Hollis Page in Norwood!

http://hpengines.net/

 

[DetMatt1]

Sorry to hear about all that, as if this hobby wasn't expensive enough!

 

[aussiemark]

Dave the basic timing for a 426 Hemi is manual TDC +or- 2.5 degrees, automatic 5 degrees BTDC +or- 2.5 degrees these specifications are from the 1970 Dodge Challenger/Dart Service Manual they should serve as a good baseline setting.

 

[IQ52]

That will be a poor initial base timing. Please, this isn't a 426 Hemi from a '70 Challenger, it is a 426 Crate engine, they are different.

Here is a dyno test of a 426 Crate Hemi.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0310-hemi-426-crate-engine-dyno-test/

Though they don't give the initial timing at idle, they found 33 degrees the best total timing for the stock crate engine. The cam that comes in the crate engine will want about 14 degrees initial.

I have built and dyno'd Hemis and many other Chryslers. Initial timing on a properly designed engine is generally determined by the camshaft duration, NOT by the Chrysler service manual.

 

[dmc8163]

aussiemark, using the factory service manual settings will a) result in a no start situation and 2) lead owner to use starter fluid and 40 degrees total advance. Once again I "was told" that everything in the '70 service manual applied equally to the crate Hemi. Obviously wrong advice that could have led me to do catastrophic damage to my engine.

IQ52, I will dial in 14 initial and 33 total as soon as time permits.

DetMatt1, the cost of failing to do thorough due diligence cost $60K, including engine, drive train and all parts. Starting the restoration with a rolling (sort of) chassis and a clean title simply x 2 and you have a 120K 1970 Dodge Challenger R/T with a 426 Hemi and a 4-speed. With a little luck other enthusiasts will read this and think twice before entrusting their car and cash to a swindler. Check everything you can find on the net, query law enforcement including he State Attorneys General Office, verify operating licenses, talk with employees w/o the owner present, get a comprehensive written contract up front and understand that if it is not in the contract it doesn't exist, contact and interview at length a MINIMUM of FIVE previous customers, develop on your own (not provided by the owner) at least FIVE additional previous customers and interview, and MOST IMPORTANTLY if feel something is not right about the owner or shop, for any reason, walk away regardless of the deal you are offered. Finely, never pay up front, pay weekly based upon invoiced work. Sound arduous and burdensome? So is losing thousands of dollars. Just ask any of the 34 victims of Classic Muscle, Nashville, TN.